The Borgias – List Of Most Significant Cesare/Lucrezia Scenes

Borgias poster season 1I did an entry on Cesare/Lucrezia two years ago after the Showtime series created by Neil Jordan finished its first season. (I also touched on other adaptations of the story of the Borgia family.) At that time the forecast for anything more than subtext was grim – Jordan had indicated in interviews that the show would not go there, leaving the romantic aspects of their deep affection for each other as a sort of unrealized ideal. However, for whatever reason, that all changed for the third (and, as it turned out, final) season when a sexual element, and more than anything a sense of awareness, was introduced to their relationship.

I haven’t paid Cesare and Lucrezia too much attention because they are relatively popular, and there are plenty of resources. However I received a request on my tumblr for some guidance as to which episodes one would want to watch if one was only interested in Cesare/Lucrezia and not the rest of the show, and I decided it would be helpful to create a list of their most significant scenes and links to watch them. The links will take you to my dailymotion channel where I have uploaded just the relevant scenes. Or you can go here to the playlist. You can also download all the clips as zip files from here: season 1, season 2, season 3.

It is difficult to make a recommendation of the top episodes to watch for someone who is interested in doing that rather than just watching the clips. If I had to, my suggestions would be 1.01, 1.04, 1.09, 3.02, 3.03, 3.04, 3.09, 3.10.

Very basic background info for anyone who is totally unfamiliar with the story: Rodrigo Borgia became the scandalous Pope Alexander VI in 1492 in a time of great turmoil within the church and between the various Italian states. With his former mistress Vanozza he has four children: Juan, Cesare, Lucrezia, and Gioffre. He now keeps a new mistress – Giulia Farnese. The family struggles through schemes and wars and murder to keep a hold of their wealth, power, and position, with each member contributing in their own way.

Obviously there are going to be references to characters, places, and events you might not understand if you’re only watching the important Cesare/Lucrezia scenes and not the entire episode, however I don’t believe it will impede your ability to follow or understand their relationship at all. (Just one note: Lucrezia’s husbands do not live in Rome, and Cesare often leaves Rome on political missions, which is why there are so many scenes that involve one of them either leaving or returning.)

1.01 THE POISONED CHALICE

-Scene 1: Lucrezia spies on Cesare having sex and he teases her.101 - 1
-Scene 2: Cesare tells Lucrezia he wishes she would never marry.101 - 2
-Scene 3: Cesare is relieved that Lucrezia hasn’t been harmed.101 - 31.03 THE MOOR

-Scene 1: Cesare warns Lucrezia that her marriage may not be one of love.1.03 - 1
-Scene 2: Cesare advocates for Lucrezia’s happiness with their father.francois arnaud cesare borgia the moor1.04 LUCREZIA’S WEDDING

-Scene 1: Cesare comforts Lucrezia while she grieves for Djem.1.04 - 1
-Scene 2: Cesare unhappily officiates Lucrezia’s wedding.1.04 - 2
-Scene 3: Cesare and Lucrezia dance.cap00003
-Scene 4: Cesare carries Lucrezia to bed.1.04 - 31.06 THE FRENCH KING

-Scene 1: Cesare and Lucrezia greet each other warmly upon her return.1.06 - 1
-Scene 2: Cesare tells Lucrezia that she is beautiful.1.06 - 2

1.07 DEATH ON A PALE HORSE

-Scene 1: Cesare and Lucrezia discuss her husband.1.07 - 1

1.09 NESSUNO

-Scene 1: Cesare and Lucrezia greet each other.1.09 - 1
-Scene 2: Lucrezia tells Cesare that she’s pregnant.1.09 - 2
-Scene 3: Cesare sends Lucrezia to stay in a convent until her child is born.1.09 - 3

2.01 THE BORGIA BULL

-Scene 1: Cesare and Lucrezia discuss impossible loves.2.01 - 1
-Scene 2: Cesare tries to make Lucrezia smile.2.01 - 2

2.02 PAOLO

-Scene 1: Cesare helps Lucrezia to see Paolo.2.02 - 1

2.03 THE BEAUTIFUL DECEPTION

-Scene 1: Cesare takes care of Lucrezia when she finds out that Paolo is dead.2.03 - 1
-Scene 2: Lucrezia is impressed when she learns the trick Cesare has played on their enemies.2.03 - 2

2.04 STRAY DOGS

-Scene 1: Lucrezia fears that Cesare is unhappy.2.04 - 1

2.06 DAY OF ASHES

-Scene 1: Cesare gives Lucrezia a knife stained with her former husband’s blood.cap00002

2.10 THE CONFESSION

-Scene 1: Cesare jokes about him and Lucrezia running off together.2.10 - 1
-Scene 2: Cesare and Lucrezia dance, Alfonso is jealous.2.10 - 2

3.02 THE PURGE

-Scene 1: Cesare agrees to negotiate for Lucrezia to be able to keep her son with her.3.02 - 1
-Scene 2: Lucrezia invites Cesare into her room while she is naked.3.02 - 2

3.03 SIBLINGS

-Scene 1: Lucrezia helps Cesare get dressed.3.03 - 1
-Scene 2: Cesare promises to make Lucrezia happy.3.03 - 2
-Scene 3: Cesare and Lucrezia give in to their lust and kiss.3.03 - 3
-Scene 4: Lucrezia looks at Cesare while walking with her husband.3.03 - 4
-Scene 5: Cesare refuses to dance with Lucrezia3.03 - 5
-Scene 6: Lucrezia goes to Cesare’s bed and they have sex.3.03 - 6

3.04 THE BANQUET OF CHESTNUTS

-Scene 1: Cesare is ashamed when he and Rodrigo come across Lucrezia.3.04 - 1
-Scene 2: Lucrezia rejects her husband’s advances.3.04 - 2
-Scene 3: Cesare and Rodrigo agree to allow the consummation of Lucrezia’s marriage to be observed.3.04 - 3
-Scene 4: Lucrezia is furious when Cesare tells her she will have to consummate her marriage in front of an audience.3.04 - 4
-Scene 5: Cesare observes as Lucezia and her husband have sex.3.04 - 5
-Scene 6: Cesare expresses hope that both he and Lucrezia will be able to move on.3.04 - 6

3.06 RELICS

(This video was taken down from the streaming site and I am not allowed to re-upload it, but you can download it here.)

-Scene 1: Lucrezia and Cesare discuss their respective marriages.3.06 - 1

3.08 TEARS OF BLOOD

(This video was also taken down from the streaming site – it can be downloaded here.)

-Scene 1: Lucrezia wakes a sleeping Cesare.308 - 1
-Scene 2: Lucrezia has her fortune told.308 - 2

3.09 THE GUNPOWDER PLOT

-Scene 1: Cesare and Lucrezia greet each other excitedly upon her return.309 - 1
-Scene 2: Lucrezia pretends it is Alfonso that she loves.309 - 2
-Scene 3: Lucrezia and Cesare discuss her husband’s suspicions.309 - 3

3.10 THE PRINCE

-Scene 1: Lucrezia is frustrated by her overwhelming love for Cesare.3.10 - 1
-Scene 2: Cesare tells his mother that most of his fears are for Lucrezia.3.10 - 2
-Scene 3: Cesare reclaims Lucrezia from her grief over her husband’s death.3.10 - 3

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93 Responses to The Borgias – List Of Most Significant Cesare/Lucrezia Scenes

  1. vangiekitty says:

    Can I just say how awesome you are for doing this? You saved me the trouble of watching most of season 2. Is S 3 really the last? Am I to understand that C and L end up together?

    • Shipcestuous says:

      I’m really glad to hear that it’ll be helpful to you! There are many aspects of the show I enjoy, but I have found it boring at times, so I can understand someone wanting to filter through it for just the Cesare/Lucrezia content.

      Yes, it was not renewed for a 4th season, and I believe Showtime also passed on the option for a movie to conclude the story.

      Anyone familiar with the story of the Borgia family, either from one of the other movies/series, or from history, is probably aware that Cesare died while rather young, so it’s hard for me to say that Cesare and Lucrezia end up together, but in terms of the show canon, that is the case. Lucrezia is displeased with Cesare in the final episode, but I think the final scene shows that she won’t break from him. And for his part he makes it very clear that he will not let her go.

      In that way the cancellation is a very positive thing.

      • vangiekitty says:

        That’s a good point. I would hate to see him die. Better to end on a high note. I wonder if they finally let C and L get together to try and up viewership because I know they were very against it in season 1. It certainly made for some interesting episodes but I can’t help wishing there was a little more buildup in S 2 to work up to it. Would also have been nice to end w an actual declaration of “we love each other and we are staying together” to end it but oh well…

        • Shipcestuous says:

          Yes, I agree on all counts.

          I do have to wonder if the network put some pressure on Neil Jordan to escalate the relationship, either based on fan demands or just plain old common sense. Francois Arnaud indicated that he believed it was the natural progression of the relationship, even that Jordan had wanted him to tone things down earlier on, which just goes to show what his and Holliday Grainger’s instincts had been, LOL.

          I am completely agreed about wanting more build up in season 2. All of the sudden in 3.02 Lucrezia is coming on to him. I would have liked to have seen a gradual building of their awareness of the fact that they were in love with each other and attracted to each other sexually. I think there’s a repressed sexuality to all of their interactions, but we never see how it becomes decompressed.

          And yes, I would have liked a scene like that as well. Even if Lucrezia had just raised her head and kissed him back in not just a passionate but an affectionate way – I think that would have said everything. I don’t think the ending was ambiguous but it could have been a little bit more rewarding.

          • vangiekitty says:

            Hey, in reading over your list of movies with incest themes I didn’t see Shame w Michael Fassbender. Did I miss it or have you not seen the movie? It’s absolutely fascinating with very clear signs of a much more than familial relationship between the brother and sister characters.

            • Shipcestuous says:

              No, you did not miss it. Sadly, I have not done a write up for Shame, though as you quite rightly pointed out, it well deserves one. It’s on my very long to-do list, but I have discussed it briefly on a few occasions on my tumblr – here is the tag for Brandon and Sissy. You are probably the 4th person within the past two weeks to bring up Shame with me, so clearly I need to move it to the top of the list. I saw it when it first came out on DVD (I was too embarrassed to see it in the theaters, LOL) – I think the reason I didn’t do a commentary on Brandon/Sissy right then is because I was a little disappointed. The subtext is there but I had been hoping for more. I know once I return with lowered expectations I will be even more enthusiastic.

              Thanks for your interest – it’s noted!

              • I actually got to see the original script and there were some things cut out of the movie. Nothing super good–just the fact that their father had abused both of them which obviously led to Brandon’s sex addiction and Sissy’s low self worth issues. I did like to think though that they turned to each other for comfort. The fact that they seem comfortable seeing each other naked and the fact that Sissy climbs into bed with Brandon for comfort (even though he subsequently kicks her out) seems to indicate it. Yes, do move it to the top of your list. I would love to read one of your exhaustive reviews of every little nuance of the film. ; )

                • Shipcestuous says:

                  That’s very interesting. I’ll have to be sure to look for all of those extras.

                  I agree that Sissy climbing into bed with Brandon seems to call back to something done as children for comfort.

                  Hopefully I’ll get a chance to write about it before too long!

      • Natalie says:

        This is a very very years late reply but I agree with you completely I think it’s finally clear after doing research and analyzing the episodes that it is very clear that Cesare never loved any other woman but Lucrezia. Every women he’s been with has been for sexual lust purposes. He has been faithful and obsessed and in love with lucrezia ever since season 1 The ending episode only shows that regardless of Cesares “marriage” to Charlotte that he has claimed Lucrezia as his own. And the kiss on the neck only proves that he will love her forever and besides if we look at it this way. Cesare has always protected her. No matter what he will always be there for his own sister but it’s safe to say regardless of no 4th season that they were endgame since day 1 regardless of their relationships

        • shipcestuous says:

          I don’t think anyone could argue that Cesare loved any woman more than he loved Lucrezia, and I truly believe that Lucrezia is who he really wanted all along.

      • Natalie says:

        Here is how I have come to the conclusion that Lucrezia and Cesare are endgame. I have done analytical research on the episodes and I don’t think anyone can deny the fact that they have more than sibling love for each other. Every other women that Cesare has been with has either been for lust or for a one night stand. Never love like he has for Lucrezia. I think it’s more than enough to realize they are madly in love despite their marriages. Their so called marriages are worthless compared to their love. No matter what Cesare will always love Lucrezia and his dark words “you will be naked, clean, bloodless again, and MINE” the kiss on the neck even reassures he claims Lucrezia as his love. I’m grateful that we saw as much as them as possible. Throughout the season we see the truth. Lucrezia and Cesare may be siblings but that’s the point they are loyal to each other within their despair and darkness and mistrust with their father they find each other and they are silently begging to just be together and I think that’s the beautiful part. Incest may be disgusting in the eyes of the world but in this show it was beautifully done and I’m glad they finally buried the hatchet and stopped playing games with each other and just came to terms with the fact that they cannot be away from one another.

        • shipcestuous says:

          Yes, it was about time! Their eyes were finally opened, and though it was a struggle they admitted that what they really wanted was to be together. It was beautiful.

          • Natalie says:

            One thing I am grateful for is that the series ended on a note where we all (fans of Borgia) can rest assured they were endgame. I had read “The Borgia Apocalypse” I am so grateful it never came to pass it felt rushed and the characters were so different. I just love how the actors ended the show with us knowing that Lucrezia and Cesare will always be lovers. It’s amazing how many years has passed. I not only love Lucrezia and Cesare but the actors that played them. Goodness they were amazing. I really hope sometime in the future the actor and actesss of Cesare and Lucrezia (François and Holliday) can be in something together again their chemistry is insane and honestly I just have a deep love for both of them now ugh! Sorry for my fangirling I discovered the Borgias so late. Like 5 years later when it’s been over for a while it’s crazy Im grateful that the ending was rest assured and was absolutely amazing I couldn’t ask for more.

            • shipcestuous says:

              I was wondering if you had read The Borgia Apocalypse. I am so grateful that it was never made. It was just not right at all and definitely not a worthy ending. The way it was left off with 3.10 is far better.

              It’s so hard discovering something years after it was new because there’s no one around to fangirl with but I think everyone feels the same way about Cesare and Lucrezia and Francois/Holliday – they had amazing chemistry and it was really a once-in-a-lifetime kind of ship. Everyone, including me, still loves them so much.

            • Cris says:

              I make your words mine, only in 2017 I discovered the series, I’m in love, I love the actors, I would love to see them together in a new movie.
              Sorry. Bad English. I’m from Brazil.

  2. moi says:

    thank you for this. i think the season 3 lacked a ore intimate passionate aspect, ahem sex. their chemistry is amazing obviously, and the first two seasons really showed that, but it was really bad writing for them to have cesare being all ‘oh no we can’t’ all season, when they could have had a far better storyline for them. the ending was alright, but not exactly satisfying. we don’t expect a happy ending obviously, but the lack of sex scenes were kind of irritating.. however their kiss scenes were fantastic.

    • Shipcestuous says:

      You’re welcome!

      Yes, I agree. I think we all have our own ideas of how it could have been handled differently and more to our respective likings. Personally I appreciated Cesare’s resistance – I think it represented how protective he is of Lucrezia and how unclean he feels he is, and I also think that his shame added an extra spark. But I wish there had been more build up, and I wish that Lucrezia had been shown to be choosing Cesare in 3.02 and 3.03 rather than turning to him after feeling sexually unfulfilled by her husband. And of course more sex would have been nice, but I was mostly interested in seeing them being in love and unable to resist each other no matter how much they tried, and I feel satisfied with that respect. As for the ending, I also would have appreciated something a little happier, but I can think of many ways in which it could have been worse, especially with it not being written as a series finale.

      Thanks for the comment!

      • moi says:

        Totally agreed. And it was good they didn’t just brush over it, but a lot of it left me confused. He seemed to say one thing- do another. His empty promises to her kind of annoyed me until the end of the season. The build up was probably shortened because we’ve had like two seasons of unrelenting UST, and I know some would call it innocent, but now reading the actors say it was always there between them? Makes sense. And yeah, it did sort of feel like Lucrezia was just turning to him because of her marriage, but I blame the writers for that. A lot of the writing this season was diabolic.. And I know they both have to grow/change every season, but for a final season it was a let down overall. I’m also probably the only person who disliked the post episode-four storyline. To conclude though, it could’ve ended much worse- possibly with her resenting him as history suggests, so I guess the writers wanted to end it how they started it, these two united away from the rest of the family. It’s really a shame there won’t be a follow up. I accept it’s over, but man, how interesting it would’ve been considering how it ended between them. Her third marriage thrown into the equation would add plenty drama and the Family’s downfall and Pope’s death.

        • Shipcestuous says:

          Yes, Cesare did seem to make a lot of empty promises to her, but he didn’t have a lot of flexibility. I think he believed that once he accomplished this thing and that thing etc., he would finally be able to give her everything she wanted.

          I don’t know the exact situation, but I’m not sure the writers knew they were writing the final season as they were writing it. The season might have served as a final season with a few tweaks, but episode 3.10 was clearly not written to be a series finale. So I don’t think they chose this as their ending at all. However, I believe that a true ending might have been quite negative for shippers, especially depending upon how much further the show might have gone if it continued. The last thing I would want to see is the two of them estranged and Cesare dying of syphilis on some foreign battlefield.

          I think that the first two season were filled with UST but I still think we were shorted on build up. I guess I just like the build up most, which is why I’m particularly resentful about that aspect.

  3. Gilly Hynes says:

    Thank you so much for doing this. It is really fantastic.

  4. Fay says:

    Oh my God, i am crying, this is so perfect ..i twitted to all me friends, THANK YOU so much for this wonderful recap Dear!! If you want to see WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN S4…THEN JOIN US IN OUR MOVEMENT TO SAVE THE BORGIAS! We need you all, Borgias fans!

    Join us in mass tweet tomorrow, #SaveTheBorgias
    and in https://www.facebook.com/BringBackTheBorgias
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Boycott-Showtime-Bring-Back-The-Borgias/206803252804583?ref=stream
    http://savetheborgias.tumblr.com/

    • Shipcestuous says:

      I’m so happy to see that it is being appreciated and that it was time well spent.

      Thanks for those links – I know a lot of people will be interested in getting involved in the movement to save the show. And hopefully everyone will see in time to join in the tweeting!

    • fayvl says:

      This page is going to be my TOP FAVOURITE from now on…Thank you for put their scenes (and telling their story) together..I will comment here, all their scenes dear, if it is ok with you.. For now, allow me to just say this: If you want to see WHAT HAPPENES NEXT, after “MINE” SCENE(WHICH IS CLEARLY CUT OUT ABRUPTLY!),

      Please join us to our new Official Save The Borgias Fan Campaign™ WEB SITE http://savetheborgiasfancampaign.weebly.com
      Tumblr http://savetheborgias.tumblr.com/
      Also we have a new FB PAGE: https://www.facebook.com/SaveTheBorgiasFC

      WE ARE MOVING FROM BringBackTheBorgias FB.
      BringBackTheBorgias FB still operates,but WE ARE MOVING FROM THAT PAGE, (go and read the announcement, please)

      Our “movement” has gained attention as #SaveTheBorgias

      The new page reflects that since we cannot (by fb rules) change the name of this one(Bring Back TheBorgias) ,and our campaign name is SAVE THE BORGIAS Fan Campaign.
      We are not adding new pages/groups, we are MOVING. So, please follow the above FB page, also, alongside with BringBackTheBorgias FB.

      We need you all, and together we can win! We are getting stronger with each and every one of you, Borgias Fans,we are all very optimistic, we will make it to save our beloved Borgias! We need you all, to make a reality a S4!

  5. Jarka says:

    I just wanted to say-thank you! It´s fantastic you did it for us, for people who fell in love with this no future relationship. It is awesome and you are really kind to us. I must say (despite historical accuracy or not) that I wished them love and watching their tragic fate made me cry not once. I am quite old to do such a thing but I did. And you may be right-I also started to fight for a proper ending, but on the other hand I hate to see them not to be together.. Many greetings from the last romantic from Prague!

    • Shipcestuous says:

      You’re most welcome!

      Yes, Cesare and Lucrezia have a lot of tragedy in their story. It breaks my heart too.

      Personally I am glad that we did not have to see their ultimate fate. That would have been too painful.

  6. Adel says:

    TANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now I can go straigth to those scenes… Thanks a lot!!!!

  7. L. says:

    I adore this entire playlist, I can’t even pick a favorite moment, because each one has something so special about it? I think I loved their innocence in season 1, how protective he was over her, all that, but I also love how she became this fierce goddess of sorts in season two- hardened by the hardships she had been put through from her first marriage. I sometimes found myself irked by the actions of Cesare, as he is in a sense the most selfish character, but for her- he would literally die. And I adore the fact that even the show is aware that no other woman he has been with- none- can even compare or come close to his absolute adoration for Lucrezia. I never thought I’d root so much for incest, in fiction I seem to gravitate towards forbidden love, but with these it is done so beautifully.. and for me at least, the spark between them was always there, and in the final season it was just ignited. And I tend to take them as what they are, fictional characters loosely based on historical, so in that sense I am glad the ending was so open.. The possibilities for them are endless. And despite them never being able to be a normal ‘couple’ (running away and changing names pipe dreams aside) I do hope for both their happiness’ sake they get to have some form of a relationship together that isn’t strained by how wrong or right it might be perceived. The last episode with Lucrezia opening up about how natural and good it felt to her? That in itself sums up the fascination with incest stories and how you truly cannot help who you fall for. Yes, cesare might have tried to fight it, but we all know from the very first episode- his love for her is the only human quality he has., and he did not want to ‘ruin’ her in a sense, but in the final episode he sees they are both ruined already- sadly, by their family and power- and gives in.
    What is your favorite scene? And what is your favorite thing about these two?

    • Shipcestuous says:

      Wow, beautifully put!

      I agree completely with your assessments of the three seasons, the way you felt about the ending, and your descriptions of Cesare. Lucrezia truly is his humanity and no other woman did or could ever compare.

      I find it impossible to choose between their innocence in season 1 (but still with that underlying sexuality), and the unbearable heat of season 3 when they finally have a physical relationship. Their first big kiss in 3.03 while she is arranging the seating for the wedding is the sort of incest scene that is done exactly to my tastes. She wants reassurance from him that he’ll always put her first, and he tells her exactly what she needed to hear – that the whole world can crumble for all he cares – but he can’t even finish the sentence because he just, finally, needs to kiss her. And then the kiss itself is just incredible. They want and need each other so much, and they always have, but this is the moment where they finally realize it and understand exactly what it is. And then, for really the first time ever, they’re uncomfortable around each other because they know that something has changed and there’s no going back. And because these are taboo feelings, even though they’re clearly reciprocated. I mean, it’s just a perfect scene, and like I said, exactly to my personal tastes. If I had to pick a favorite scene then that would be it.

      My favorite thing about them would probably have to be the arc of their relationship. How they started out extremely close but totally unaware of where their feelings might lead. That innocence and idealism between them, at the start and then even later on when their innocence and idealism in every other respect was gone. And then how, inevitably, the desire that had always been lying just under the surface suddenly (but also not-so-suddenly) erupted. That’s probably what I’ll always associate them with – that journey from obliviousness to absolute understanding. Especially Cesare, who, like you said, finally embraces in that last scene that they cannot have happiness and they cannot be clean but they can have each other.

      Thanks for your great comments and discussion!

  8. Lindsay says:

    THANK YOU.

  9. Do you have any idea how this post just changed the whole experience I have with incest ships? I mean, first, they are a really well accepted canon incest ship. This opens so many doors to know so many people who actually enjoy it and avoids all social situations where you say your interests without sounding weird when you say you like these sort of thing.
    I don’t know if you know, but I take very seriously all your posts here lol I love your extensive writing about the BS incest stuff and it wasn’t different this time, so I took into consideration and marathoned all seasons in one weekend. I’m not sure I’ve fallen in love because of this of because they are actually awesome (because they are), but the thing is: I am completely devoted to them now. I love how the show made progressive changes in their relationship. They don’t normally make this kind of development when it comes to incest relationships, like in Game of thrones, where we just see that they have a relationship, never explaining where that came from or why or how, it’s just there and you have to swallow (because we do).
    This kind of progression is normally reserved for best friends, when the director wants to build up some sort of tension between the characters. I don’t think I have ever seen an incest couple being developed that way. That’s why I loved them since that first scene when Lucrezia is peaking on Cesare having sex. It was a way to tell the viewers that these characters are aware of each other’s sexuality.
    Also, the development of each of them individually leads them to that fateful night where she goes to his room on her wedding night. I feel like there is a method, a logic that culminates there. It did not “just happened”.
    I also love how the other people notice and utter their discomfort towards them. I love that scene on 3.09, where they meet halfway to Rome/Naples and one of Cesare companions comments that “not everyone can love that way”, because it’s not innocent anymore, it’s not sibling love anymore and perhaps it never was.
    Alfonso was an awesome surprise, I thought he was going to be that dumb husband that never notices anything, but he was pissed off by how Lucrezia and Cesare behave towards each other. And he said it, and kinda acted on it (and died).
    I am so so so much disappointed that the show was cancelled. Now that Alfonso is dead, and she knows that Cesare killed him, something seems to have changed between them. I think now they would become the famous and deadly family. Up until now, we see a kind of inoffensive Lucrezia, but I think that that would change within her now that she has gone through this “shock”.
    I can be wrong, but this would make Cesare notice that he is not breaking her. He runs from her all the time, and I think it’s because he sees her as his clean sister that he is condemning to hell. Now that she saw and technically killed her husband, Cesare would see that shadow on her soul and would take full advantage of this. And thereupon, he would stop running and would embrace their sinful love.
    There is a campaign to save the borgias, but I don’t know if it will have the consequence we want, I am really disappointed with showcase and all it’s left for us is fanfiction.
    Well, I’m sorry about this giant text LOL I know, everytime I come here you have to read these big comments. But well, it’s all your fault 😛 also, I just stalked your twitter page and saw the blog incestrelative and saw that header lol #dies

    • Shipcestuous says:

      Don’t feel bad about the long comment – the longer the better! I’m always interested in sparking discussion and in hearing what everyone has to say, both about what I have written and about the couple.

      It’s funny that I created this post and uploaded those scenes so that people could avoid watching the whole show, and instead it inspired you to marathon it, but I am very glad to hear it! I’m honored to hear that you take my recommendations seriously, and I’m so happy that it paid off in this case.

      It’s true that The Borgias really opens things up for incest shippers because 1) Cesare/Lucrezia is a relatively popular ship, and 2) Cesare and Lucrezia are a canon incest relationship that become canon during the show, and end up together, more or less. I always referred to them as a gateway incest ship, but it’s more true now that they’re canon than it ever has been before. There is a lot of community for Cesare/Lucrezia, especially on tumblr, so I hope that you will take advantage of this opportunity to be free about shipping incest.

      The comparison you made to best friends falling in love is perfect. We never seen incest relationships developed this way. As much as I love Jaime and Cersei, you’re 100% right about the fact that they’re already together and in love when we meet them, and this is often the case with canon incest, especially when it’s villains or part of a mystery. And Cesare and Lucrezia are revolutionary, almost, because they are the opposite. We see the progression of their relationship from innocence (though not unaware of each other’s sexuality) to sex to whatever you want to call what that was at the end, a sort of one-ness. “Mine”, as Cesare said.

      I was also delighted by others, especially Alfonso, beginning to pick up on the incest vibe. I often wonder what Micheletto thought, especially during seasons 1 and 2. But coming back to Alfonso, I was surprised that he figured things out, and so quickly, but I liked it. Cesare and Lucrezia just can’t hide it from someone with so many opportunities to observe them.

      I do think Cesare has reached a point where he is no longer going to run from their love. I don’t think he would welcome Lucrezia’s descent into darkness because that’s where he lives and he hates it. Like we saw in 2.10 when he didn’t want to officiate Lucrezia’s wedding because of the blood on his hands from killing Juan. But I would love to see them side by side with no more pretenses, no more innocence, no more lies between them, and Cesare, especially, done protecting an innocence that she no longer has.

      I encourage you to help with all of the Save The Borgias campaigns, but I agree with you, I do not think they will be successful.

      Thanks for sharing all of your thoughts and for commenting here! I really am glad that you’re a big Cesare/Lucrezia fan now!!!

  10. fayvl says:

    My comment, that for some reason didn’t appear in dailymoyion! Also, i will post all my comments, here too, for everyone to see, and discuss them, i will be very happy, to read everyone’s opinion!!

    Cesare/Lucrezia Scenes – 1.01 – The Poisoned Chalice

    Their first scene, where he runs and catch her, laughing..And then the way he “towers” all over her, the way he cover her completly with his body.. Shows so many feelings of him.. Tenderness, protection, LUST. Even then, the lust was there, subconsious, in those hugs, and “eskimo” kisses. The way that they lean so close to eachother, like there is no place for personal space to each other…
    And then his declaration that he doesn’t her to married..And her “gigle”, followed by the “innocent” remark that “Marriage surely is good”, reffering to the love making, since she already saw him sleeping with someone, shows to the viewer, that even then, even as a innocent girl, Lu, loved Cesare as a man, and had “subconscious” lustful feelings, even if, she couldn’t recognize them, due to young age and innocence, as a ‘woman’s love”. She crearly WORSHIPS Cesare, and she tries to make him jelous again subconsciously, when he teases him about the “joys of married life”. AND MY FAVOURITE LINE, THROUGHOUT THE SERIES “IF ANYTHING HAPPENS TO HER…I’D DIE!” i need S4. BADLY.

    Cesare/Lucrezia Scenes – 1.03 – The Moor

    One more from my favourite scenes..The “double meaning” and the great SYMBOLISM of that scene, kills me every time. In her first wedding night CESARE was the one that carries her to the marital bed, and lays beside her..LIKE A HUSBAND OUGHT TO DO.

    And his lust, and torture, and tremendous pain of loosing her, is abvious to his tenderness, the way he leave her to bed, the way he looks at her sleeping, and kiss her cheek. The way he struggles not to kiss her again, HIS PAINFULL SIGH. the way he touches her hand..And the hours that spend, just looking her asleep. Because when he takes her to bed, the feast is blooming, but when he returns, they all left..SO HE STAYED WITH HER HOURS.

    And the PURE HATE IN HIS VOICE AND EYES WHEN HE LOOKS AT SFORZA, AND SAYS “PLEASURES”.. HE CANNOT BEAR NOT EVEN THE THOUGHT OF SOMEONE ELSE TOUCHING HER..In THAT moment i think that the idea of murdering Sforza, was formed in to his thoughts…

    This “wall scene” is one of my all time favourites..The way he looks at her lips, and just for a single second “leans” forward, as if he wants to kiss her, and contains him self, the last moment… i die, every time…SO POSSESIVE, AND YET SO TENDER…FULL OF REPRESSED LUST…

    • Shipcestuous says:

      Yes yes yes to everything you said. I agree completely with everything, and especially with all of the latent sexuality to that very first scene between them. Everything you pointed out makes the argument perfectly that even at the most innocent we see them there’s still a sort of buried lust there.

      And I love that you mentioned when he said, “If anything happens to her…I’d die,”, because that’s not a moment I remembered, but when I was skimming in order to make the list it really stood out to me. He knew even then how deeply attached to her he was. Even if he didn’t realize he was “in love” with her, he knew that she was so important to him that he couldn’t stand to lose her.

      And yes, that conversation between Cesare and Sforza at Lucrezia’s wedding after Cesare has carried her up to her bed is very chilly. Cesare is possessive and protective, and you really see it there. Cesare would like nothing more than to get rid of that man forever. I wonder what he might have done if he and Lucrezia lived a different life and he didn’t have to worry about politics.

      Thanks for sharing your thoughts here! I don’t know what’s wrong with daily motion and the comments feature but I’m really glad we have your commentary recorded somewhere.

  11. fayvl says:

    Hello again, my dear! Thank you so much, for taking the trouble to read and comment, my post! I am so glad you agry with me, and yes, i agree with you too! Except of this part

    “Even if he didn’t realize he was “in love” with her, he knew that she was so important to him that he couldn’t stand to lose her.”

    Please permit me to state my argument here, by posting my personal opinion, on one of my favourite topics, of Ces and Lu relationship|: CESARE’S GUILTS.

    Warning: This is going to be HUGE analysis, i really hope you don’t mind, and that you will read it!

    I believe that Cesare IS PERFECTLY AWARE that he is irrevocably in love with Lucrezia, since day one, first scene, when she was a innocent girl in 14. That is the reason, that Cesare has TERRIBLE Guilts, that led him, aftair 3.04 to “dismiss” Lu, saying that whatever happens over, and they can both find happiness, etc, a DENIAL of their mutual feelings, that last up untill the Final scene of 3.10!

    OK, i ‘ll start from the begginning here:

    Let’s discuss one of my favourite subjects. “Cesare’s GUILTS and why does he has them?”

    The guilts that Ces has after the love making in ep 3×03, and as a resolt he told Lu in 3×04 to find happiness, and he keeps his distance fron her since then, why does he have guilts, and why Lu doesn’t seem to have absolutely NONE guilt,or regret about their love making( bc, well, I think is obvious that Lu wants him very much (as a lover).

    Yes i Cesare has many guilts, and Lu, doesn’t, about their physical relationship. I am certain that if it was her call, we would have a lot of on top scenes now(trully sad that they cut the love –on top- scene in credits!!)

    But try to remember that Lu was his little sister, so young 14 years old in first ep, and although she felt in love with Ces, she didn’t REALIZE what this feeling was exactly (aka the romantic love of a woman to her beloved man) and maybe confussed it with the “sibling-big brother worship” she always had for Cesare.She BEGAN REALIZED THEM AS A WOMAN, THAT LOVES AND LUSTS FOR PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH HIM, IN THE ARMOR SCENE, AND SHE FULLY ACCEPT AND EMBRACE THEM IN THE wedding board scene. So, she didn’t felt guilty, she hasn’t spend years and years of wanting, FORBIDDEN wanting…

    On the contrast Ces, WAS FULLY AWARE OF HIS FORBIDDEN LOVE AND LUST FOR HIS LITTLE SISTER, FROM THE FIRST MOMENT OF THE 1 EP, I REALIZED THAT FACT (“where is Lu? You missed her that much? Always…if anything happens to her, i’d die”) these are not the words of a sibling..These are the words of a man MADLY AND IRREVOCABLY IN LOVE. Ces knew his feelings…And he “regret” them every day, every hour, for YEARS. BC Lu was so small, innocent(of course under age!) and of course knew nothing of sexual lust..(well…not quite, as i recall from their first encounter in ep 1) BUT NEVERTHELESS, SHE WAS JUST A ” CHILD” STILL, IN ALL ASPECTS. (Remember his words, when R said “we must marry her”??)

    So Ces was FULL of guilts, for his forbidden feelings. I ADORE THE FACT THAT ALTHOUGH THE SEXUAL TENSION WAS THERE ALLRIGHT (AB AND ELOISE SCENE) CES NEVER, NEVER TRIES TO TOUCH HER INAPROPRIATELLY..TO “ASSAULT” HER YOU KNOW, MAKE A SEXUAL MOVE..

    HE RESPECTS HER LIKE HIS PERSONAL SAINT I BELIEVE..HE ADORES HER, HE WOULD NEVER STAIN HER WITH SEXUAL ACT…

    (I ALSO BELEIVE THAT HE WOULD NEVER KISS HER EITHER IF SHE WAS STILL “INNOCENT” BY THIS WAY (NO EXPERIENCE IN MAN, I MEAN).

    Although he kissed her, if SHE didn’t go to his bed, without her clothes in 3×03, although lusts for her, He wouldn’t DREAM to go to her bed by his initiative, even though his lust is…torturing him. Lu’s welfare (or what HE THINKS that her welfare is, always comes first than his personal needs.

    SO, WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY is that Ces lived with his guilts for years. And then, when he slept with her, THESE GUILTS MAGNIFIED. He had failed to keep her in her “saint” place. So he denies those feelings, and as i sai make the “from nowon we are just siblings” thing. this is his way to compensate for his failure to restrain him self, and his lust. Bc he trully believes that he will make her unhappy, he will CONTAMINATE HER with his “dark cloud”.
    (Remember :
    “I was born with a stain. A mark. Like the mark of Cain. But it is the mark of my father, my family. The mark of Borgia. I have tried to be other than I am, and I have failed.”
    “I must divine then the dark cloud in my brother’s soul” )

    Lu just accept those feelings, bc, yes he was her big brother, always loved her, protect her, always there for her..the only thing they didn’t have was physical love with each other. Also, don’t forget that Lu before that night with Ces, never knew WHAT “MAKE LOVE” MEANT. Not ABBUSIVE sex (husband) not just “give me comfort sex” (paolo), nor “Just lust” sex (painter). She never slept with someone, able to sare their bodies, their souls, their hearts. Ces was her ONE AND ONLY in that aspect. So, it was EASIER for her to accept this aspect of their relationship, and embrassed it, bc as i said, the only thing they didn’t have was physical love.

    Ces gave her EVERYTHING ELSE.That night gave her that too. She accepted that easily.

    But this is not the case for Ces..

    Because yes, they became lovers, but next morning, Ces was drowing in guilts, and desided to go to the root “Nothing more, hands off now, just sibling,go find happiness Lu”.
    And tries to keep the “hands off”, and he succed doing that, even with difficulty during bed scene in ep 8..

    So, i figured, that the “Big brother “thing” he has regarding Lu it is VERY STRONG, STRONGER THAN HIS LOVE AS A LOVER/SOULMATE TOWARDS HER. AS BIG BROTHER ALWAYS PROTECTING HER, AND NOW WANTS TO PROTECT HER FROM HIS OWN DESIRE, AT LEAST UNTILL EP 10.

    This decision of his, to keep up the barrier that he put since 3×04 to Luc (‘keep hands of and just be siblings Luc”) doesn’t change in ep 9.

    In the “carriage” scene, nothing changed, in substantial way. What happens is that momentarily he is overwhelmed by his fear, agony and pain that she is in danger, and maybe never see her again, mixed with his love, and utter relief when his sees her. So, he runs, and hugs haer, and kiss her, impulsively, without thinking the consequences. . The fact that as Ces concerns NOTHING has changed between them, (aka still has guilts, and is determent not to succumb to his feelings, and his effort to DENY their romance love) is imprint in the “where the scandal is, WE ARE FAMILY, WE LOVE EACH OTHER.” line – Cesare playing ignorance/fool there. Lu as I said above has no guits over their relationship, so she defies his PRETENCES: “YOU KNOW WHERE THE SCANDAL IS’.

    AND HE KEEPS DENYNING THOSE FEELINGS IN EP 10, WHEN LU TRIES TO KISS HIM, AND HIS PULLS BACK.

    Although the “romantic” me, would prefer for Ces to had succumb to his desires, after 3×04, and throws the pretences and GUILTS out of the window, (AND have a lot of explicit sex scenes, with Lu from ep 3×06, up untill ep 10)-(that way we will be mores sutisfied )
    a part of me (the part that LOVES ANGST, AND FORBIDDEN, FRUSTARTING DESIRE, THAT CANNOT BE FULFIELD, IN A WORD THE GREEK IN ME, THAT LOVES TRAGEDIES ) LOVES those guilts of Ces. Because this means that he is not a selfish man, who loves ‘selfishly’.HIS LOVE IS COMPLETLY UNSELFISH. HE LOVES HER UNCONDITIONALLY, TOTALLY, WITHOUT THINKING OF HIMSELF, HIS DESIRES.

    So he thinks he will be the ‘devil’ for his ‘saint”, his ‘angel”. he cannot handle this.

    That is why he dissmiss her all the time, after 3×03. And the fact that even though he loves her so much, he believes he will be her distruction, IS KILLING HIM. THUS THE WET EYES, in ep 10 WHEN HE ASKS: ‘GOD OR THE DEVIL?”

    For me the most POWERFUL SENTIMENTAL SCENE.BECAUSE WE SEE A GLIMPSE of the torture he himself has contempt his self. A TORTURE THAT IS KILING HIM INSIDE. THIS IS WHY, I LOVE THOSE SERIES SO MUCH.

    Yes, his feeling ARE SEXUAL, in a very dominant,and powerful way, but his love for her, his “big brother” PROTECTION, he has for a lifetime, he PREVENTS him of succumb to his lust, he restrains himself,bc he thinks HE IS NOT THE RIGHT ONE FOR Lu to be happy, bc he has the mark of the “devil” (aka cane’) so he doesn’t want to “staine” her, to make her unhappy.

    His desire to see her happy, IS GRATER than his own lust, and his own unhappines with out her. Ces, prefers to sacrifice him self, contempt him self being unhappy for ever without her, to give her a chance to find happiness with someone else. His “Big mistake’ is that he hasn’t realize(untill ep 10) that Lu loves him AS MUCH AS HE DOES, SO SHE CANNOT BE HAPPY WITH ANYONE ELSE. IN EP 10, AFTER HER HEARTBREAKING CONFESSION, HE RALIZED THAT, AND DECIDE TO SUCCUMB TO HIS FEELINGS, AND LUST. THANK GOD

    One of the scenes, back in S1 that it is SO obvious that his sexual lust for her is present, and strong, simultaneously his “big brother” love and protection he has for her, is in her wedding night with Sforza, when he carries her, and lays her to bed. (As i already analyse above, in previous post, about 1.03).

    His desire to kiss her, is SO PALPABLE that even now, my heart shudder at the thought of it. He wants to kiss her, like a lover, and restrains his lust, because he knows this is not the right thing for her (again, the “big brother” thing to protect her from his lust, as i said.. Heart breaking scene, one of my favourites…

    So, this is my thoughts on the subject..I’d love to hear your thoughts, and everyone else that wish to comment.

    And probably to morrow i will return to ep analysis..
    Fay

    • Shipcestuous says:

      Wonderful analysis! I’m so glad you brought your discussion here so that I can have it on my blog and I think it’s great that we’re thinking in such depth about the relationship.

      I agree essentially with most of what you said. I certainly cannot argue that Cesare is full of guilt and that he lets his protective brother side dominate while his sexual attraction to Lucrezia submits. I think that is definitely the case. He feels unclean – both for the evil acts he has committed and for being sexually attracted to Lucrezia – and he doesn’t want that uncleanliness to touch her.

      But when it comes to the question of exactly when he became aware of his sexual attraction for Lucrezia, I think the answer is up to our interpretation, and in my personal opinion, I don’t think he was aware during season 1 at all. I think his romantic love for her and his sexual attraction for her were there under the surface the entire time, but I do not think that he knew what it was that he was feeling/trying not to feel. One of my reasons is the way he handled the Paolo situation. I don’t think we ever saw any true jealousy there. I think if Cesare had known that he was in love with Lucrezia, we would have seen a much more tangible reaction to Paolo from him. I also think the way Cesare treated Ursula while Lucrezia was in the room also indicates that he was not aware. He was never uncomfortable about it. But that is simply my interpretation. I think Cesare started to grow aware towards the end of the second season. His conversation with her where he jokes about them running off together felt to me like he knew how happy that would make him. Then in 3.02 when she invites him into her room while she’s naked, I think it’s clear he was attracted to her and knew that he found her body attractive. And I think that started a very short process which culminated in him kissing her when he realized exactly what he wanted – her – and realized that he had been fighting it all that time, and in that moment he just couldn’t fight it anymore.

      So I think from episode 1 he was in love with her, I just don’t think he knew it. So I think he acted like a man in love – such as when he said he would die if he lost her, and when he told her he hoped she would never marry, and things like that – but I just don’t think he realized it. I think we see him behaving very different in season 3, not just because of his guilt over having had sex with Lucrezia, but because he’s aware now of how he feels about her.

      • fayvl says:

        Thank you so much for your reply. I am also very happy that I found your blog, and that you gave me permission to write my thoughts in here!
        But…I hope you don’t mind, I still disagree with you? Although I understand what you are saying, I still strongly believe the Cesare was FULLY AWARE of his love for Lucrezia, since day 1, scene.
        THIS IS ONE OF THE MAIN “TRAGIC”, ELEMENTS IN THEM, in THEIR LOVE STORY. This is crucial for adding a “glimpse” of Greek Tragedy in their relationship.
        And I say this, based on the very same scenes you say! (LoL!)
        I will explain. Please remember my analysis above in ep 1, and ep 3.

        Their first scene, where he runs and catch her, laughing..And then the way he “towers” all over her, the way he cover her completly with his body.. Shows so many feelings of him.. Tenderness, protection, LUST. Even then, the lust was there, subconsious, in those hugs, and “eskimo” kisses. Subconscious for Lu, not for Ces.
        Cesare, lusts Lu. And he has guilts, BIG guilts as I said already. And tries to “hide” and “disguise” his lust under his “big brother “ love (OF COURSE, THERE IS THAT TOO, I ALREADY SAID THAT, BUT THE EROTIC LOVE AND LUST IS THERE, AND HE IS AWARE OF THEM).
        That is the reason he LET HER see him have sex. This was their first scene. I believe this is no random. This underlines their latent sexual desire.
        Notice that Ces DIDN’T SAY OR DO ANYTHING TO “PUNISH” HER, thus for her to understand that seeing him having sex HAS NOT A PROPER THING FOR A SISTER, AT THIS AGE, TO DO. He just plays, and giggles with her. Into his heart, Ces, although he knows this is forbidden, HE WANTS HER TO SEE HIS MANHOOD. HIS MASCULINITY. TO SEE HIM AS A MAN.

        In the first scene, where he runs and catch her, laughing..And then the way he “towers” all over her, the way he cover her completly with his body.. Shows so many feelings of him.. Tenderness, protection, LUST. The way he covers her completely, is an imitation for sex position, if you know what I mean.. “more than I love you?” . Also, he keeps speaking to her, SO CLOSE TO HER FACE, The way that they lean so close to eachother, like there is NO place for personal space to each other… He actually breaths her!! And those hugs, and “eskimo” kisses, these are imitations of lovers kisses.

        AND MY FAVOURITE LINE, THROUGHOUT THE SERIES “IF ANYTHING HAPPENS TO HER…I’D DIE!” these are not the words of a sibling..These are the words of a man MADLY AND IRREVOCABLY IN LOVE. Ces knew his feelings…

        Those love feelings, were very clear for me in her wedding, in my analysis in 1.03. His lust is so intense, that the viewer can sense it..He is trying real hard not to kiss her, you can see that from his body motion..after the kiss in her cheeks, he leans once again towards her…and stops himself. Then makes a sigh, and caresses her hand.. He suffers trying to restrain his lust, but succeed.

        Paolo and Ursula show me exactly this: That they were just “proxies”, ‘substitutes” for both of them.
        Think this, my dear.

        WHEN Cesare approaches Ursula ?? JUST AFTER Lu MARRIAGE.
        A MARRIAGE THAT TAKE HER AWAY FROM HIM. EXACTLY WHEN DID HE NOTICE URSULA??SECONDS!!!! YES SECONDS, AFTER Lu told him in their dances to stop making fun of her husband, bec, she was married to him, and she has to deal with the marriage and him, whatever his flaws are, now.

        WHAT Lu DID EXACTLY?? Show Ces that she ACCEPTS HER MARRIAGE STATUS. She is married now, and he must respect her husband. Showed him IRREVOCABLY that someone else has come between them, in their personal space. THE SPACE THAT UNTILL THEN, WAS ONLY THEIRS. JUST THE TWO OF THEM.

        Cesare REALIZES THEN, WITHOUT ANY DOUBTH, THAT HE LOST LU. YES, HE LOST HER, BY HIS SIDE. And he SIMPLY cannot handle it, NOT EVEN FOR SECONDS. HIS PAIN IS SO DEEP, THAT IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH IT, TO trick his one self he turns his affections IMMEDIATELY to another woman. A WOMAN THAT IS Lu twin. In everything. Hair, colors, fragility, eyes, all the same.

        AND ABOVE ALL…ABOVE ALL..Ursula (just like he knew that Lu would be, that the reason, alongside with utter jealousy, that after the wedding rips off his robe, bec KNEW that Lu would be unhappy, her husband didn’t love her) Ursula suffers in her marriage.
        Subconsciously, Ces “transfers” to her, all the feelings that has for Lu. He murders her husband to FREE HER. WHY?? Bec he WAS UNABLE TO DO IT FOR LU. TO FREE HER FROM THIS MARRIAGE.

        But Ursula wasn’t Lu. She had no idea, of his souls dark cloud..And he runs from him, like crazy. Lu NEVER run away from him. That was his MISTAKE. He thought that Ursula, except of her physical similarity with Lu, had her character too, and could love him AS HE IS, JUST LIKE Lu did. Big Mistake.

        Ursula shows him that he is not Lu. And Ces freaked out. At some point if you remember, when SHE CUT HER HAIR SHORT (and in that way, she “move away” from the “image” of Lu (long, blonde hair) Ces realized that this woman HAD NOTHING COMMON TO Lu, and became violent. Bec this is his character: Violent, to all, except Lu. Ursula let him down, as a substitute.

        Also, try to remember, that Ces was chasing her, and HE WAS ALL OVER HER BODY, AND FACE , JUST LIKE HE WAS WITH Lu. In some wall, he tucks her, he was speaking like one inch of her face, he touch her constantly, in all her body. And URSULA CAN’T BREATH. If you see that scene again, you will see that she feels SUFFOCATED.

        AND THIS IS NORMAL. Imagine, how many of us in RL can handle someone that he is all over us CONSTANTLY??Not leave us some personal space?? But the viewers, WE COULDN’T REALIZE HOW WRONG THIS BEHAVIOR IS, HOW UNNATURAL, BECAUSE Lu NEVER SAW HIM THAT THIS BEHAVIOUR OF HIM SUFFOCATES HER. Bec she is his counterpart, his alter ego, bec she loves him with the same passion devotion, and unconditional love.

        Ursula’s part, for me served one purpose alone . To saw to the viewers that these two people CANNOT HAVE “NORMAL” RELATIONSHIP with others. No other can accept their dark side. BEC ONLY A BORGIA CAN LOVE A BORGIA. No other can take the place of their “ideals”.

        And about the last scene, that gives Pregnant Lu to Ursula to watch over her…Dear, he is totally indifferent to her. He is not even look at Ursula, he is SO CALM towards her. YOU KNOW WHY?? Bec, the “original”, was there. No need for the “proxy”. He looks only Lu, speaks only to her, and when she tell Ursula that he will come often..this was for Lu, not for her. Also, he was so CALM, bec now he has what he wanted. Lu free from her marriage. HIS AGAIN. ONCE MORE SHE BELONGS ONLY TO HIM. Who cares about Ursala?? Lu was in his side, to take care of her, once more. No need to be mad at Ursula.

        Paolo, was the substitute of Ces..Lu was left UTTERLY ALONE, without her beloved brother to protect and love her, without his sweet tenderness, without his constant reminder, THAT HE WILL DO EVERYTHING FOR HER SAKE. EVEN TO SUCRIFICE HIMSELF.
        So, she turns to Paolo. A dark hair and color man, that he is tender, loves her unconditionally, and he is willing to die for her..(RING A BELL??)

        Also, On your question about “why Ces accepts Paolo, and help them to be together”
        That is WHY I am so passionate with this couple.

        Dear, Cesare, as I analyze thoroughly above, in my “guilts” post, LOVES UNCONDITTIONALLY HIS Lu. HIS HAPPINESS COMES LAST, HER, IS FIRST. He even was willing to let her find happiness with Al, condemn himself to personal misery. The “Big brother “thing” he has regarding Lu it is VERY STRONG, STRONGER THAN HIS LOVE AS A LOVER/SOULMATE TOWARDS HER. AS BIG BROTHER ALWAYS PROTECTING HER, WANT HER TO BE HAPPY.

        So she asks Lu (and his agony is VISIBLE I in his face and voice) “DO YOU LOVED HIM SIS?”
        And she answer that he is kind, father of her son, AND THAT HE SUCRIFICED FOR HER (HELP HER LEAVE SFORZA, AND GET A WHIPING FOR THIS.

        BINGO. Lu said she loved him that he is been treat her with respect, and that he protected her, by sacrificing him self. Paolo GET CESARE’S CREDIT. That is why, he take the initiative to arrange a meeting between them, bec Paolo EARNED HIS RESPECT, and bec he want to give Lu happiness. Lu want to see Paolo. She will. End of discussion.

        Does Ces HURT?? YES. DOES HE FEELS DESPAIR AND JEALOUSY?? YES TO ALL. But Lu happiness is above all that.Above his personal suffering. We, as viewers, WE DO GET A “GLIMPSE” OF HIS JEALOUSY AND SUFFERING, when he demand of Lu “to see him ONLY ONE TIME. ONLY ONE, SIS, PROMISE ME”.

        Because, YES he sacrifice his own feelings, and arrange a meeting for her lover, but, what a heck, Ces is only a man, a human. He cannot handle this, more than ONE TIME.

        And Lu KNOWS, UNDERSTAND HOW difficult is this for him, understands his “inner pain”, even back then she was “subconscious aware” of the feeling that she share with Ces, THUS she kiss him for the first time, in mouth. As a “thanks,” in obvious, and as a “I love you above all, please, no need to feel threatened and jealous, I just wanna say good bye to the father of my son”

        The way that Ces LIFTS HIS UPPER BODY TO LINGER ON THE KISS, TO PROLONG IT…Oh my God… OF COURSE HE WAS AWARE OF HIS FEELINGS..In fact he WAS HUNGRY FOR HER KISS.. And Lu, giggles, and try to make the kiss casual, but the audience know…

        I love also, the symbolism here, in Ces position..IS LYING DOWN, LIKE HE WAS HELPLESS IN HER ARMS, AND Lu “towers” over him, showing his “weakness” for Lu, and the “POWER” that Lu has over him.

        Later, when Paolo arrives, please watch the scene again…At first, for just a moment Ces IS THERE, IN FRONT OF HIM BLOCKING THE WAY TO HIM…STANDING BETWEEN HIM AND HIS PRECIOUS Lu..We see a ““GLIMPSE” of his “il Valentino” determination, in S3. He stands between them..and for some moments Paolo and himself, ESTIMATE ONE ANOTHER, Paolo looks him straight in the eyes. He is not afraid of Cesare, he does not back off.
        .
        His attitude, says to Cesare “Move, I want to see my Lu and my son, I HAVE EARN THIS RIGHT, FOR ONE AND ONLY TIME”.

        And Ces moves.

        NOT BECAUSE HE DOES NOT YET REALIZE HIS FEELINGS FOR LU, BUT BECAUSE OF THEM.

        Because saw in Paolo’s eyes, a “rival” for Lu’s love, yes…But A WORTHY ONE. Ces saw in Paolo’s ayes his honest, true love for Lu, THE SACRIFICE THAT HE IS WILLING TO MAKE (TO SEE HIS SON FOR ONE AND ONLY TIME) and admired him, HE RESPECT Paolo.

        Ces Borgia respects very few people. Paolo was one of them BECAUSE PAOLO LOVES LU WITH THE SAME “MANNER”, THAT HE, HIMSELF DOES.UNCONDITTIONALLY. Ces realized that, so he decided to “back off” FOR THE FIRST AND LAST TIME, LET ANOTHER MAN TO HAVE HIS Lu.

        He didn’t do it with Al, you know why??Bec ON THE CONTRAST WITH PAOLO, Al, saw him THAT HE WAS NOT LIKE Paolo. He was WEAK, UNABLE TO LOVE AND PROTECT Lu. For God’s sake, he didn’t utter a word to defend Lu son! That, IRREVOCABLY “reduce” Al in Ces eyes, HE WASN’T WORTH HIS Lu. That is why he didn’t respect Al as her husband, that is why he deside to kill him.

        He was not tried to kill Paolo, and he would never did. Because Paolo was worth his little sis.

        That of course DOESN’T MEAN, THAT HE WASN’T DYING INSIDE OF JEALOUSY, BECAUSE HE KNEW VERY WELL THAT PAOLO MADE LOVE TO Lu.

        But, remember, what I said. HER HAPPINESS ABOVE ALL. ABOVE HIS PAIN, HIS LUST, HIS OWN HAPINESS. He dismisses her after 3×04, ALTHOUGH HE KNOWS THAT SHE LOVES HIM. HE FOUND THE STENGHT TO DO IT, UP UNTILL EP 3X10. This is the best proof of my words…Saw us JUST HOW UNSELFISH he is, when her happiness is involved.
        He will be her devil, her stain, her destruction..He believes that, so he dismisses her love, up until 3×10. HE LOVES HER THAT MUCH. SO YES, HE WAS CAPABLE TO ARRANGE A MEETING WITH PAOLO AND STAY GUARD AT HER DOOR, WHILE Lu, the woman HE LOVES, makes love with another man..

        This is unconditional love..This is the reason, I love these series, and the couple so much.

        Finally, yes, Ces tries to fight his lust, but loosing this long years battle..He watches her say THAT SHE WANTS VERY MUCH TO MARRY ALF, THAT HE IS IMPORTANT TO HER, THAT SHE WANTS HIM AND THAT SHE WANT TO LOVE HIM ALSO
        (Remember 2×10, “Do you love him sis??” and his voice trembles there, chokes, HE TERRIFIES THE ANSWER)

        And is jealous..thus the armor scene..But in this scene, Lu’s lust wakes up at last…And she decides to “Play a game of want and wanting”.
        But if you listen VERY CAREFULLY, when Lu, pulls him, and urge him to kiss her, FULLY, AS A MAN, no games for the first time, he whispers “AT LAST”.

        There..That is your proof dear..HE WANTS HER, DESIRES HER WITH A FORBIDDEN LUST THAT TORTURES HIM FOR YEARS, THAT FILL HIM WITH GUILTS. BUT SHE IS IN A PEDESTRAL, AS I SAID IN MY PREVIOUS POST, HE WOULD NEVER DREAM NOT EVEN TOUCH HER INAPPROPRIATLY, MUCH LESS TO KISS HER, OR HAVE SEX WITH HER.
        HE WOULD NEVER LAY A FINGER ON HER, THE WOMAN SHE ADORES, HIS LITTLE SISTER. NO WAY, HE WILL NOT “INFECT” HER.

        HE SUFFERS ALL THOSE YEARS, SILENTLY, FROM UNAPPEASED DESIRE…AND SUDDENTLY Lu begs him to touch her, to kiss her, as a man. ON HER FREE WILL, ALTHOUGH, I ADMIRE HIS HARD EFFORTS NOT TO LAY BESIDE HER(SHE PULL HIM TO BED) AND SAYS “I SHOULD LEAVE SIS”.

        Even then, the moment that the woman he longs for so many years, is in front of him naked, HE TOUCHES HER ONLY WITH HIS EYES. HIS HUNGRY EYES. NOTHING ELSE. SHE PROVOKES HIM TO TOUCH AND KISS HER.

        She showed him that she is a woman, and as such she wants to kiss her, on her free will. THIS WAS HIS FORBIDDEN DREAM ALL THOSE YEARS. Her, to come to his arms, as a woman that longs for his touch, just as much as he does all those years… Thus the “AT LAST”.

        But, then, he spell is broken, and realize WHAT HE WAS READY TO DO (TO CONTAMINATE HIS ANGEL, HIS GODESS, WITH HIS DESIRE, HIS “MARK OF Cain”) and he pulls himself, looking terrified..

        But it is too late..He knows her lust, have seen her body, feel her as a woman. H cannot restraint his lust anymore, thus the wedding board wild kiss out of the blue..But that I will analyze in this ep!

        And as for the last scene “I want you to marry me” in 2×10..They both are aware of their love feelings, I believe,.
        They play FOR SOME MOMENTS, THE GAME..OF DREAMING, AN IMMPOSSIBLE LOVE, AN IMPOSSIBLE FATE, AN IMMPOSSIBLE LIFE TOGETHER…

        They KNOW…but for one minute, they allow themselves to live in a beautiful lie, that never can happen…BE TOGETHER.
        Ces knew what Lu meant of course..
        But he tell her his forbidden dream. Because he NEEDS TO LIVE IT, AND SAY IT TO HER, EVEN IF IT IS JUST FOR 2 MINUTES, BEFORE THEY COME BACK TO REALITY…THAT SHE MUST MARRY Al, because he is her brother..

        And Lu, although she still is unaware of the exact nature of her feelings towards Ces, again SUBCONCIOUSLY, WANTS to hear him talk to her about that forbidden dream..
        The words SHE choose, is no random…

        She said “I WANT YOU TO MARRY ME…” and stop…

        She wanted, needed to hear his confession, even if she didn’t realize it that moment..

        Those exact words, show to the viewers, that this, is also her forbidden dream, even if there is only in her subconscious…and when Ces start talking, tell her about his dream , SHE DOESN’T STOP HIM, DOESN’T CORRECT HIM, DOESN’T INTERRUPTS HIM.

        SHE LET HIM CONTINUE, AND FINISH HIS DAY DREAMIND… THEN AND ONLY THEN, SHE SAYS “WITH Alf” and he says “I know”, with such despair in his voice..They both know..It is impossible..”Do you love him sis?”

        She could very easily say instead of this “I WANT YOU TO MARRY ME…” this sentence “I WANT YOU TO PERFORM THE RETUAL AS YOU DID IN MY 1 MARRIAGE” No misunderstanding there, on their meaning..

        But she choose those words..THOSE SYMBOLIC WORDS..DID I MENTION I LOVE THESE SERIES!

        And allow me to add something last…. See this please…

        credited to fyeahenraptured.tumblr.com

        This scene is a deleted from S1..And this exact scene, saw me ONCE MORE, that Ces was fully aware of his forbidden love and lust for his little sis…

        when I saw this scene, I wasn’t thinking like most of people , that he exclude her of a conversation regarding her future, and thus, he dismiss her, and degrades her, not asking her opinion…or anything (even that, is ok, I mean she is 14 for God shake, not 21!)

        But I thought something completely different…
        A
        PARENTLY I AM THE ONLY ONE WITH A “DIRTY” MIND HERE..

        The scene gives me the CHILLS ON THE INTENSITY OF SEXUAL VIBES, THAT ARE TREMENDOUS.

        His eyes on her, his expression, is full of lust, a forbidden last, that a grown man has for a very young (and under age) woman, and know this is wrong, and try to dismiss it..But his eyes betray him…

        And the “shut” in the door and leave her out, has a SYMBOLISM FOR ME..

        He decides to “keep her out” of his adult life, in a hopeless effort to keep her safe of his own “infected” lust he has for her. He continuous to treat her as a child, bec this is his shield, to contain his lust.

        IF HE LET HER IN, HE WILL HAVE TO ACCEPT HER IN HIS ADULT WORD. AS A MAN. AS IF SHE IS A WOMAN.

        WE ARE IN S1. HE CANNOT EVEN IMAGINE TO SAY “MINE” YET.
        He cannot handle this.

        He PREFERS to see her ‘walking on air” still.

        Bec, in this way, she is her “saint”, his beloved sister, he cannot stain her with his lust.

        That is the “subconscious” reason that hate Sforza too. (apart from hurting her). He made her a woman.
        A woman he lusts for. And by this transformation, he lost his shield, to keep his lust under control.

        This is what I saw in the scene..

        This, or…maybe I need to see a doctor…???

        DID I MENTION I WRITE ALMOST 4 H THIS HUGE POST??? I MY GOD, I HOPE YOUWILL READ IT ALL, dear, and tell me your thoughts!!
        Fay

        • Shipcestuous says:

          Wow, thanks for bringing so much careful analysis and insight into our study of Cesare and Lucrezia’s relationship! I definitely bow to your expert knowledge and familiarity with these scenes. I think it’s perfectly wonderful that you disagree with me and your explanation of why you disagree was extremely helpful. You made a lot of great points (I read them all, I promise!) and I’m really pleased that all of this excellent commentary is now a part of this post. But I’m afraid on the question of whether Cesare was fully aware of his sexual attraction towards Lucrezia from the start or not, we’ve ended up in a bit of circle. I believe that we cannot know for sure and that it is entirely up to our interpretation, but once again, in my personal opinion only, he did not know.

          I agree almost completely with everything you’ve said – I do think Ursula and Paolo were substitutes (particularly Ursula), I do think that Cesare treated Lucrezia like a woman he was in love with, both in his words and his body language, I do think there was sexual tension in the scenes that you mentioned, etc., I just don’t think Ceasre was aware, I think it was subconscious. I think when Cesare said that if he lost Lucrezia he would die that those were the words of a man in love, but not necessarily the words of a man who knew he was in love.

          When it comes to Paolo, I agree that Cesare was putting Lucrezia’s happiness first, above all else. But just because he allowed Paolo to see Lucrezia doesn’t mean he could not have acted jealous while he did it, and I just didn’t see any jealousy, that I can remember. Nothing on the level of a man who is arranging a tryst between the woman he is in love with her and her lover.

          As for the scene when Cesare gave a pregnant Lucrezia over to Ursuala, I agree that Cesare paid all his attention to Lucrezia and almost ignored Ursula for most of the scene. But what I was looking for was some sign that he was uncomfortable about having his lover in the same room as the woman that he was truly in love with, and again, I didn’t see that. That’s typically a very awkward situation and Cesare seemed almost pleased to introduce them.

          I really liked what you had to say about Cesare and Ursula, about him changing towards her after she changed her hair, and about her being unable to accept who he really was the way Lucrezia could, and her being unable to handle the intensity with which Cesare treats his women.

          As for the “marry me” scene in 2.10, I do think Cesare, and perhaps Lucrezia as well to a lesser extent, was beginning to realize that their relationship was much more than brother and sister. The way he lept onto her phrasing and spun this fantasy about them running off together – I think it was a careful joke that sort of created a temptation in both of them for that, even though they knew it could never be. That Lucrezia phrased it that way is very suspicious – I had never really thought about that before and I agree with you.

          I have not seen the deleted scene, so I’m not sure exactly what was going on there. I definitely felt some sexual tension just from that gif.

          Essentially what it boils down to is that I agree with everything you’ve said, just in such a way that Cesare is unaware and does not realize he is in love with her.

          But I think we’ve definitely proven that it is up to our interpretation and I think both ideas are perfectly valid, and it’s really just up to us depending up on what we prefer or what we see.

          • fayvl says:

            Hello again dear! I am afraid i have TONS of work lately, and i am not able to answer you earlier…i want to write comments for next ep too, and i don’t have the time!! I just finish work, and it is 23:00 pm here! But today, i said to my self, i have to answer!!

            Well…yes i can see your point of view, and i believe is perfectly valid too! Both can apply, Cesare to be aware, or not…
            To be honest here, i prefer to ‘interpret’ the scenes as i said , meaning is aware of his forbiden passion, because that element gives so much more angst, and despair, pain, frustration, lust, GUILTS to their relationship…and i confess i LOVE all these!! (lol!)

            About Paolo…He wasn’t saw us jealousy..What i received from him was a GREAT inner pain.. a suffering…bec Lu was loving another, and she wanted to be with him..

            I sensed that in his line “Do you loved him…sis??” Pain, pure pain…was coming from his body position, the way he had his head down, (we don’t see Cesare with head down much!) like he was trying to deal with something awful, that gave him also pain…

            Also, the tone of his voice was different… If you notice, he says “Do you loved him.” with a louder voice, a more “imperative” “authoritative” tone in his voice, it is like for a SECOND, speaks like a jealous lover!! (Yes, maybe there is some jealousy afterall!) but that lasts just for a second…changing his tone, with a lower, more assertive voice adds: “Sis?”. (and his agony is VISIBLE I in his face and voice)

            Like he came to his senses..he has NO RIGHT to be jealous.. The big brother “thing” he has, is still powerfull, it prevails of the “lover” part in him… When she says that yes, she loved him etc…Cesare gives me the impression that he “surrenders to his fate”. He wants her happy, above all. He will help her…for once! Even if he hurts inside.

            I love also, the symbolism here, in the way he is lying as i said..IS LYING DOWN, LIKE HE WAS HELPLESS IN HER ARMS, AND Lu “towers” over him, showing his “weakness” for Lu, and the “POWER” that Lu has over him.

            The way that Ces LIFTS HIS UPPER BODY TO LINGER ON THE KISS, TO PROLONG IT…Oh my God…I receive pure pain from all over his body, he NEEDS that kiss of Lu to manage to make the ‘Big sucrifice’ to happen..To find the strenghth to back off, and leave Lu to another man’s love..for one night. i do believe this was maybe his most difficult night ever. But this is their love..UNCONDITIONAL…

            As for Ursula..yes you are totally right he was very ‘cool” having them both there..But i see it, in the same way i see Ces to make way for Paolo..They are not ‘normal” lovers…They are also siblings,and as such (“Big brother, and little sis” thing, remember??) they want for esch other to be happy.. What i am trying to say (damn my Eng, no native speaker!) is that they have two sides, two alter ego’s, both of them.

            The “sibling” ego, and the “i am in love ” ego… THEIR RELATIONSHIP IS NOT SIMPLY Erotic, as it applies for two lovers USUALLLY, it is also sibling relatioship..

            As a result, of their ‘dual” aspect of relationship, some times “prevails’ their “siblings’ love , and others “the erotic’ love…As we move on to seasons, we see that the erotic side became stronger, more ‘aggressive” bec Lu was growing up, being a woman, and Ces lust was too intense, magnified by the years of forbidden wanting..

            But especially in S1, the sibling side, was prevailing, for both of them. Cesare had spoken to Lu about Ursula, in the garden, in fact this scene was one of the very few (if not the only one!!) that i didn’t felt ALMOST none erotic vibe..They were talking as siblings..And Lu was happy, bec her Big Brother, her BELOVED IDEAL was happy..and in love..And she had touched his heart, in such a tender manner, in this scene..But THE TIMING of that scene, the converstion about his love for Ursula, wa not random… As i said, then Ces was “into the substitude”, Lu was married, and he was under the “delusion” that he had find true love and happiness, (bec Lu was “lost’ to him that time)

            Thus, his Lu, knew all about Ursula..So Ces was quite comfortable…Also, don’t forget, in the same scene, Lu was asking him something about Ursula(i don’t remember exactly, but i think if in this moanastery lives Urs) and whaen he says yes.. and that he broke his heart, Lu’s eyes became misty..She was suffer, hearing talking about another woman, ALTHOUGH she knew about her.. But for Ces, the chapter “Ursula as substitude’ was long CLOSED. He never was TRULLY in love with her, so he could speak to Ursula, with comfort, calm. Moreover, as i said in my previous post..he had the original by his side…Sforzawas out of the picture, he, and only he, was the responsable for his beloved Lu again…HAPPINESS, BLISS. So, no need to feel uncomfort for Lu and Ursula met..Infact this, exactly this behavior of him, being so comfortable, prooves to me beyond any doubth, that he never had real feelings for Ursula. She was a delusion, a fake belief, a dream. A dream that desapears completly, when the day comes…In Cesare’s case, when Lu came back…How many of us, remebering the dreams of night the day..They are lost, into thin air..So is Ursula, for Cesare.

            I completly agree with you. This is the crucial element that this series have, and made them high quality!! We are talking about a series, we all love,but every one sigle viewer of this series, perceived them in a different point of view.Everyone has a different opinion, not only about the series, or the couple, BUT EVEN FOR ONE SINGLE LINE IN THE SCRIPT. We can find 2-3 different meanings, in every line.

            This is the beauty, THIS is what makes a director, and a script writer, not just GOOD, but EXCELLENT. To be able to give a scene, a line, a story, in such way, that can have multiple interpretations.
            Borgias had these rear beauty and talent, in all aspects. This is why, i am determint to keep fighting, untill the end..We will get A Season 4. Period.

            Greetings, Fay!

            • Shipcestuous says:

              First of all I just want to thank you for your enthusiasm! Your love for Cesare and Lucrezia is very energizing and I think it’s wonderful.

              Yes, I can understand why you prefer Cesare to have known he was in love all along, even though I prefer the opposite because I like to think that I got to see him realize he was in love with her right before my eyes, which is my favorite part, personally.

              I like the idea you put forth of there being a lover side and a sibling side to their relationship, and one side prevailing sometimes, and the other side prevailing at other times. It’s a different way of looking at their dynamic and very interesting. I think it’s definitely a valid interpretation.

              The scene you described where Cesare asks Lucrezia, “Do you love him…Sis?” – I agree with everything you said. I do think he seemed very jealous and very sad in that particular scene. He was dealing with a lot of different things in that scene – he wanted her to be happy, but he didn’t want her to be in love with someone else, and he didn’t want her to be in love with someone that she might not be happy with, and just so many things going on for him. Very complex.

              Thanks again for sharing your insights and for bringing all of this discussion!

            • fan20172013 says:

              Hi, thanks OP & fayvl, this is a wonderful site, I discover this brilliant show (and this site) so late until now.

              May we talk about the look of Ces when the Naples King telling them the lack of consummation. (PS As a viewer, like OP said before , this show has “ The random but somehow perfect humour”)

              Ces must feel his world crump down terrify and he is horrify that he destroy her life, future, happiness.

              The guilt must be immense and then the humiliation (to him and Lus) about open display (as a result of his fault, he is the big brother he should protect her and not give in all sorts of temptation with Lus in the first place )

              and the pain he had to agreement with the Naples King’s deal. He could not protect her and also he let her down completely (and worse when he heard her screaming “I love you”, “where is the love for me”…and her final request she choice him to view it.

              The guilt must be unbearable to Ces.

              • shipcestuous says:

                Welcome! It’s never too late to get into this show. It’s great to have another Cesare/Lucrezia fan on board and I’m so glad you shared your thoughts with us!

                Cesare really is tortured sometimes by Lucrezia – the question of how to do right by her, and all the times he failed.

                • fan20172013 says:

                  hi thanks, I love the actors as now there are no many fan make site so I could watch their acting in slow motion in sequence, I understand more how their feeling change in such short seconds. (they are really good all of them in the show). More I watch and more their pain/ happiness touch me. Their eyes contacts where they put their hands (their body languages), this is a very good show, I watch game of thrones too, it is great show too, however as a whole story, I would think the emotion along the story line is much drive by the actors here.

  12. Lucent-um says:

    Hi! This is really great! Thanks for putting it together. I’m wondering if the question mark scene with Alfonso shlould be added to this list. It clearly was the event that pushed Lucrezia over the edge and made her seek out Cesare on her wedding night.

    • Shipcestuous says:

      Thank you! And you’re very welcome!

      Yes, I understand what you are saying and I understand why you think that scene should have been included. I do think it’s a relevant scene to the sequence of events that led to Lucrezia coming to Cesare’s bed, but in my opinion it’s not a very “shippy” scene for Cesare/Lucrezia because it makes it seem almost like Cesare was her second choice. As if she were thinking, “OK, my husband won’t have sex with me, I know someone else who will.” It becomes clear later on that her preference is for Cesare (especially through Alfonso’s jealousy), and I don’t think anyone really ever doubted that, but I felt that the scene itself was not one that was particularly enjoyable to watch from a shipper’s perspective. So I did make a conscious choice not to include it for that reason, and I felt that even though it did have a certain importance, in the overall scheme it did not matter. I would love to hear from anyone who might be able to shed some shippier light onto that scene or help me to see it in another way.

      Thanks for your comment! I really appreciate hearing your thoughts.

      • aX says:

        It was a badly delivered execution on the writers end because it made it more about Alfonso (in a weird way) too much and may come off as Lucrezia being sexually frustrated on her wedding night when we know it was much more than that. So I don’t blame you for excluding it.

  13. I have stumbled upon your analysis and the comments and gulped them down all at once.
    I side with you in regards to Cesare being totally taken by his sister on all levels but not fully aware of it. In season 1 he definitely sees himself as her protector, and is perhaps already quite possessive, but I find it plausible he might have explained this to himself as a desire to protect her from the cruelties of the world.

    I believe the first time Cesare really had his ‘oh shit!’ moment (pardon my French) is in season 3 when Lucrezia did her display of power a.k.a. invited him in while laying naked on her bed. Before this Cesare is more or less sure that he is the only one with dirty thoughts here. Dirty thoughts are sins, they should be avoided and repented, you know the drill.

    And then Lucrezia goes full attack at him, and he is dumbfounded. He is used to being in control. Yes, he desired her, and sometimes he was trodding on the border of impropriety, but he also developed some stoppers, and could rely on himself never crossing the line. All this is good for nothing now. There is another player in the game. Lucrezia started her own game now, and for this Cesare is unequipped. He’s so unbalanced that at some point he finds himself kissing her. OMG! What to do? What is this game? He doesn’t know the rules! And the rules he does know work against each other here! One rule says ‘never kiss angelic little Lu like a woman’ while another states ‘always do what she wants!’

    And then she seals this new disposition by coming to him on his wedding night. Oh Cesare, you are such a goner. For this is the point of no return. Has she not done this, he’d regained his balance back. He’d find some suitable reasoning for her games, mend his mental armor and would become immune to them (more or less). Alas, he didn’t had the chance. From the wedding night he sees Lucrezia as a women who desires him as strongly as he desires her. From a stopper she turned into a prize. Beautiful, brilliant… and his, of course.

    • Shipcestuous says:

      Hello!

      I quite agree. He is definitely possessive from the start, and no doubt aware of the fact that he cares for Lucrezia in a more intimate way than most brothers care for their sisters, and perhaps even thinks her beautiful in a less-than-objective way, but there’s a very clear shift in the third season when Lucrezia starts coming on to him. And I also agree that if she had not come to his bed on her wedding night he might have been able to shove it all down again, and definitely to explain away her behavior, but that was a point of no return for him, much as he might pretend for the next few episodes after. That was all just denial.

      I like what you said about their exchange of control. Once Lucrezia figures out what she wants and decides to go after it she has all the power. She’s definitely playing a new game that he is “unequipped” for. I love that.

      I loved your analysis! Thanks for sharing. And welcome to the blog!

      • Hi again,

        After S3x03, Cesare’s pretenses are not only denials, they are also an attempt to do what he believes is good for Lucrezia. Like the actor stated in one of the interviews, ‘he feels he needs to be a bigger man for her.’ Tough. Lucrezia has chosen a different path. I enjoy the little interlude where she is waking him from sleeping in S3x08. In few seconds he goes through nibbling at her fingers possessively, turning his face away from her stoically and clutching at her hand desperately. He’s not playing anymore. He’s trying to keep his brains together.

        Alfonso’s behavior doesn’t help either. To be frank, I find him quite a whiner. Maybe it’s just me, but he seems to be constantly complaining about something. ‘Lucrezia doesn’t allow me to protect her!’ – ‘Lucrezia is trying to get in my bed!’ – ‘Lucrezia is not trying to get in my bed!’ – ‘Lucrezia loves her brother!’ – ‘Lucrezia loves her brother far too much!’

        Honestly, I would tire of him too. He never actually gives Lucrezia anything of value. He only makes her life complicated, albeit unintentionally. And he is stupid enough to provoke Cesare. On multiple occasions. Seriously. It’s Darwin award right there.

        The fact that C&L are together after S3 fills me with dark joy and inflames my imagination. Just imagine them working as a team: both hurt, both deeply wounded, but together. Italy will kneel. It cannot be forever, of course, but ever short, such relationships combined with such power is the stuff of legends.

        Btw, have you read this fic? I find it incredible in terms of depiction of C&L relationships and dynamics.
        http://archiveofourown.org/works/914859/chapters/1774094
        (It would be fun if it turns out that you’re the author lol)

        Ok, this post is getting far too long. Good by for now!

        • Shipcestuous says:

          Yes, it’s true that Cesare is still trying to protect her. Francois Arnaud understands the character very well most of the time, I think. He has to protect her both from the outside world and from himself. At least that’s what he believes.

          Alfonso *is* kind of a whiner. But I agree that his worst attribute is provoking Cesare. It’s like he doesn’t realize that Cesare is dangerous and doesn’t want to be kept apart from Lucrezia. And how he ever thought he could stand a chance against Cesare – in a physical fight or a contest for Lucrezia’s love – I’ll never understand. I feel sorry for him, of course, but he was in the way and everyone, even the characters, felt that way about him.

          Stay away from The Borgia Apocalypse, that’s my advice to you. I also like to think of Cesare and Lucrezia working together after season 3. Cesare, for a short while, getting his way politically with Lucrezia by his side. They have so much healing to do, but I think they can.

          I haven’t read that fic, and sadly I cannot say that it is one of my mine, but wow, that’s a great fic and thanks for the recommendation!

          And thanks for your comment!

          • Too late! I’ve read Borgia Apocalypse, the synopsis, if not the whole thing. And I agree the main thing it lacks is character development. It’s pretty obvious to me that Cesare and Lucrezia will split at some point. Part of the reason their love is so intense and all-consuming is because it stayed forbidden for so long. Now that they can act upon it, they will soon sate their hunger and will be able to focus on the aspects they never cared to explore before.

            How I see it, Cesare will be growing more and more daring, unscrupulous and unruly. The reason is simple: he is getting his way. With the power, with Lucrezia, with the world. The more he acquires, the more confident he is of himself, the less barriers he is inclined to consider. Power corrupts, and Cesare wasn’t a meek lamb to begin with.

            On the other hand, Lucrezia may find she wants peace. She had her share of politics, intrigues and dirty games. With Cesare, she burns, her life in constant danger and full of tension. This lifestyle may suit her brother, who seems to be born into it, but not her. She is a skillful player by that time, but reluctant. She wants a quite life.

            However, once you fed a stray dog, you cannot get rid of it that easily. Once Cesare gets used to Lucrezia as his lover and mistress, it’s impossible to reverse it, to get out of it. Wherever she goes, he’ll find her and bring chaos with him. She has to use some trick to get her way. As she does in Borgia Apocalypse, albeit crudely, to my taste.

            Damn, my post is overflowing again. Sorry! Have a nice weekend:)

            • Shipcestuous says:

              Well I’m not surprised that a fan like you already knew about it. It sounds like you didn’t hate it as much as the other shippers I’ve run across did.

              Yes, I do see Cesare being easily corrupted by power. We’ve already seen him darkened by his ambitions. And that’s all in line with what I know of the historical Cesare.

              Lucrezia wanting to escape it all makes perfect sense and is true to her character, though it makes me sad. It’s certainly not anything close to the happy endings I generally prefer.

            • Anonymous says:

              I am so late to discover this brilliant show. this site is lovely.

              May we talk about the look of Cesare while the France King alert them that Lucrezia haven’t consummated the marriage. Cesare must feel he destroyed his little sis’ life (and future). It is unbearable guilt.

              At the same time as OP said before ” The random but somehow perfect humor”

          • aX says:

            You wrote a fanfic? Please tell me it’s your version of season 4? I really like where you’re getting and I do agree with you. I read the BORGIAS APOCALYPSE and do I ever regret it… what were the writers thinking? lol You can’t destroy the bond that they’ve created with those two. Maybe not having a season 4 was a blessing in disguise. Which is unfortunate to say. I would’ve loved to see more of Francois & Holliday together.

            • Shipcestuous says:

              No, I’ve never written a fanfic for Cesare and Lucrezia. The show was so much like a fanfic at times I never felt like I needed to, lol. I do think not getting a 4th season was for the best, though I understand why people wanted more.

    • aX says:

      Well-said. Although, I wasn’t exactly a fan of how the writers portrayed their relationship or maybe Cesare’s guilt after sleeping together. I felt it in Lucrezia’s eyes and her disappointment but I wished the writers made us see his guilt more and maybe Lucrezia, too.

  14. What would you see as a happy ending for them? (history aside)

    • Shipcestuous says:

      Ooh, that’s a good question. And very hard to answer.

      I think they could only have happiness if Cesare was forced to retire from politics somehow. If he was driven out of power, or got very sick, lost a leg, or something. So that he and Lucrezia settled into an estate in the country together. No one but the household staff need know about the incest. He would be miserable at first, but if he got very interested in making the land productive and raising Giovanni then it might do. Or they could go and live with Giofre in his court.

      I would consider it a best case scenario simply if they were not separated. If Lucrezia simply loved Cesare too much to be apart from him and so she stuck with him even though she hated the life. The way the series finale left off I see that as a possible interpretation (history aside).

      I’ve actually spent surprisingly little time thinking about this. I guess because I do see it as a dark story. And because it’s hard for me to understand Cesare’s drive and ambition. Supporting his father and fighting for the family name was one thing, but once his father was dead…I don’t know. Lucrezia’s desire for a quiet life with her child is much more in line with my feelings.

      • Hi,
        I actually went as far as writing a fanfic with my vision how C&L proceed after season 3.
        It can be found here: http://archiveofourown.org/works/956424/chapters/1871958
        I would appreciate your opinion!

      • aX says:

        Well that’s just the thing though. If she could, she wanted to get away from being a Borgia and start anew; while on the other hand, her brother, Cesare, ambition only grew because he was a Borgia. While she could have likely attempt to start a life away from her Borgia lifestyle/family, Cesare would never allow her to be away from him nor would could she allow herself to pry away from him (for too long) either. Being together would mean they had to make sacrifices but a sacrifice that both were unwilling to challenge in any way costing them being parted from each other.

        In other words, being a Borgia was something Lucrezia could have lived without; while for Cesare, being Borgia was all he knew with the help of his father and for the love of his family. But in order to keep Cesare in her life, she would have to sacrifice by living as a Borgia and lived with the family ever-growing ambitions. Little does she know that she, too, had already welcomed the same ambitions in her own way.

        Ad I do believe that she was truly the ‘light of his life’ because the Borgia ambition only and continued to lead him into a very dark path. She was that only one person that reminded him the good things and in love despite of it all or his ‘evil-doings’. His main sacrifices were his own inner demons and inner guilt because no matter what, he can never truly protect her from being a political pawn and that they could never truly be together. Their feelings were forever forbidden and utmost secrecy, yet, she was more willing and open to it.

        I can analyze this some more but I am exhausted. Thanks for the recaps!!!

        • Shipcestuous says:

          Yes, I agree. Lucrezia could have let go of being a Borgia, but Cesare never could have. But they never would have wanted to be separated for too long. So there’s a lot of conflict with that, especially since in the spotlight as Borgias they would have to struggle to hide their relationship. Cesare’s ambitions took him down a dark path, and I definitely see Lucrezia as his light. Not necessarily because she was pure good, but because she reminded him that there was more to life.

          Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

          • aX says:

            I needed to read more into it and to see what others have thought about the finale. I am very glad to have found his site and gladly so, now that I can re-watch their scenes!!! 🙂

  15. fayvl says:

    Hello again dear, after MUCH time!!

    Due to serious personal problems, i was “out” of the Campaign, out of here, i was “absent” in generall! Now, i am back, although i am also 100% in my job, thus very little spare time..
    I wanted to say “hello’, i haven’t forget you, OR your wonderful videos and i missed our convos! I promised i will be back soon, to continue the analysis of scenes!

    For NOW, i am here TO ALLERT ALL BORGIAS FANS!!

    SOS FOR BORGIAS!We need your SUPPORT,fighting for respect for the viewers!

    Join us in our new OFFICIAL Save The Borgias Fan Campaign™

    http://www.smgo.tv/shows/the-borgias/

    As you can read, we MADE IT, TO THE SECOND STEP OF SMGO.
    (Show Must Go On). We now HAVE TO COLLECT 15.000 VOTES.

    Once we reach 15,000 votes SMGO will work with Showtime to kick off Step 3: Fund. FOR SEASON 4.

    YOUR MISSION, SHOULD YOU CHOOSE TO ACCEPT, IS TO SPREAD THE WORD and get as many people as possible to VOTE to #SaveTheBorgias!

    This is our BIGGEST CHANCE to have a S4! Please VOTE WITH EVERY EMAIL YOU HAVE. SPREAD IT.

    Relevant infos on WHAT SMGO is and how it works, you can find in our Fan Campaign Website

    http://www.savetheborgiasfc.com/united-with-smgotv.html

    All our Fan Campaign pages, links, info, etc.
    http://savetheborgiasfc.tumblr.com/ourlinks

    We are The Borgias Fans, and we need your help for our “Sacred Cause”!

    • Shipcestuous says:

      It’s great to hear from you again!

      I hope everyone sees your message.

      • fayvl says:

        hello dear! I hope so too! I also hope you will vote, and spread it to your frinds and family also..Everyone has at least one mail, and we need MANY votes to get 15.000! I also post this in some of your vid in daily motion, hoping that the viewers will see them! I hope you don’t mind…
        See you soon!! I will try to comment in weekend! Missed our analysis, but to much RL problems in the way! Happy to be back!

  16. Phoebe says:

    Thanks so much for the awesome clips you organized of cesare and Lucrezia! But 3.06 and 3.08 aren’t working… Could you please please please upload them again? Pretty please? Lol thanks so much! I’m addicted! Anyways thanks again 🙂

    • Shipcestuous says:

      Hi! You are very welcome, I am so glad someone is making use of them. I am sorry to hear that 3.06 and 3.08 are down. I am a little concerned about getting in trouble for reuploading something that the site took down – I’m not sure what dailymotion’s policy is. But I will upload the clips to a filehosting site for downloading. Give me a few days.

    • Shipcestuous says:

      Hello again! I have updated the post with download links for the videos for 3.06 and 3.08. Enjoy!

  17. BrytteMyst says:

    This was utterly magnificent, and my only questiin left is if you would do this for Klaus and Rebekah? Or just a post about them, if you haven’t done so already?

    • Shipcestuous says:

      Thank you so much! I’m really glad it was helpful to you!

      I wanted to do this for Klaus and Rebekah at one point a few years ago, but now I think there’s just too much. Too many episodes, too many scenes. I actually stopped watching The Originals earlier this season so I’m not even up to date on them anymore myself. I definitely think it should be done for them, I just don’t think I can do it. I wonder if it would be possible to get some of the active Klaus/Rebekah shippers on tumblr to take it on together. Something to think about.

  18. moonstar874 says:

    The coolest thing about this to me is that we are never told HOW this all came about for Cesare and Lucrezia. Yes we know about their growth and development for their characters but we are never walked through pre series and whether or not they were born this way. Why is their relationship closer than close? E.g lucrezia and Juan have a very platonic hate relationship which starts out as a common sibling relationship. For Cesare and his sister, it’s more like a best friends/confidant relationship. It’s almost as if they are unaware of their intimacy and that their relationship is abnormal for siblings. The first scene in the garden breathed to me as unnatural and right away we get the inkling that something is different. It makes you question if anyone else knew about them. Vanozza in the Church whilst Alexander was being crowned and declared as official Pope seemed like she saw something out of the ordinary, and throughout the series we can read her facial expressions and get the sense she is onto something but doesn’t do anything about it. Juan definitely picked up on the incest vibe as seen in season 2 with his implications “it’s long been my suspicion that my brother has had congress with my angelic sister” I’m curious to know whether Alexander or Guilia Farnese knew something too. Micheletto and outsiders probably had gut instincts but it’s surprising nobody spoke up about it, and if they did it was subtle or they died before they could take it further.

    I would love to know everyone elSe’s thoughts.

    • Shipcestuous says:

      These are all very interesting questions. For Cesare and Lucrezia, it does seem like their incestuous feelings were something that were there all along but never understood/realized until season 3 (arguably earlier, it’s all up for interpretation). What the writers/cast always say is that Cesare and Lucrezia saw each other as their ideals – Cesare would be Lucrezia’s ideal husband, Lucrezia would be Cesare’s ideal wife – and it’s like the idea that this meant they actually wanted to be together and that they *could* be together didn’t occur to them for a long time.

      I think you’re right about Vanozza and Juan having suspicions. Juan was jealous of their relationship, so he was observing closely and would have been quick to jump to the “worst” conclusions to make himself feel better. Vanozza on the other hand had her mother’s instincts.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Giulia saw something there too. Her characterization makes me think she might make the right inferences. But I can’t recall the show ever indicating this directly. Cesare and Lucrezia had always been affectionate, so it’s hard to know whether she would have seen anything that made her feel like it was suspicious.

      Micheletto probably knew better than anyone, because Cesare never hid anything from him. I think he would have been able to see it.

      Since the family is so powerful, and Cesare is so scary, I’m not too surprised that no one said anything. It could have been like on Game of Thrones where everyone thinks the incest rumors are true but as long as they haven’t been caught “red-handed” then it’s business as usual.

      Rodrigo is the one person who I think probably had no idea!

      • born2writinginsight says:

        Lets not forget Alfonso’s “This Vatican is a hive of whispers, rumours and innuendos that has set my imagination to a fever” his eyes were bulging! I felt sorry for him in that scene because you know he does know that his brother in law had slept with his wife, and god knows how many
        more times and he’s powerless to stop it.. One thing I like is that whenever C&L are around their family or in public they’re very distanced, they might make eye contact but not enough to suspect incest. After 3×04 it was really awkward between those two even when they spoke alone.

        • Shipcestuous says:

          I had forgotten about that scene! I felt sorry for Alfonso too. There was this funny joke on tumblr – Alfonso tells Lucrezia that it feels like there are three people in their marriage, and the joke was Lucrezia saying, “No, you were never even in it”. And it’s so true.

          I think you’re right about Cesare and Lucrezia. Some people might suspect them, or believe the rumors, but when they’re together in public, especially around their family, they’re not obvious about their feelings. Unless they haven’t seen each other in a long time and they run into each others’ arms and hug!

          • aX says:

            Alfonso was more of an escape for Lucrezia and the reality of being a Borgia but little did she know that it was something being a Borgia is who she was. But it was an escape in which Cesares originally agreed for her… and for her mind sake. And of course, ‘for the love of the family.’

            I can’t help but shake that it was also partly an escape from his own emotions by agreeing her to marry Alfonso. That did change though when he realized how weak he was and that Alfonso was not someone who can protect Lucrezia, if he couldn’t even speak for her so let alone, die for her. I just wished the writers allowed us, the viewers, see more of Cesare’s struggles because after they slept together, they made him pull away too much. So much that I wished they extended their sexual frustration a bit longer before letting them sleep together.

            • Shipcestuous says:

              Yes I do think Lucrezia was looking for escape with Alfonso, even though another marriage wasn’t what she wanted. But once she realized how she really felt about Cesare there was really no going back. She loved Alfonso in her way, even though he was weak, but he was no competition for Cesare.

  19. aX says:

    Can you kindly include some of the scenes where Lucrezia discusses Cesares with her mother? I forget which episodes but there was one when the mom tried to convince Lucrezia in lust and marriage…that she can have both. Which she later reveals she wanted a husband and of course, that to be Cesares to be complete. Another Lucrezia scene where she refers to him as a dark cloud, while frustrated with her feelings. That was a great scene! Not sure whom she was speaking with though.

    BTW, do you have updated links of where I can watch these scenes? Surprisingly, their scenes are not exactly easy to find on Youtube. I wonder if it’s a copyright issue…

    • Shipcestuous says:

      When I was making this list I basically just skimmed the episodes, so I’m not surprised that I missed a few important scenes where Cesare talks abut Lucrezia or vice verse. I didn’t really know the episodes well enough to be that thorough. The scenes you suggested certainly belongs on the list (and I’m glad to have some note about it on this page now), but I no longer have the resources to make clips of them, I’m afraid.

      The scenes not being available on youtube is definitely a copyright issue. The premium cable networks guard their shows very closely and don’t let go. I spot checked all the scenes I uploaded and as far as I can tell they’re all still working.

      • aX says:

        I cannot remember the episodes but I know it existed. I think both times were a conversation between Lucrezia and her mother, but I may be wrong. The first one I was referring to was from 2×06 when her mom was trying to persuade her that it was okay to be married and to lust. The other scene I was referring to was also with Lucrezia but I can’t remember whom she was talking to but she was talking about her life. She was talking about what she does have. Her family, marriage… and not a husband. The closest to a husband she ever wanted was of course, only Cesare. If I find it, I will comment it.

        • aX says:

          Ah, found another. 2×09 in the scene with the Pope, Lucrezia, and her mother. Her father is upset that she had anything to do with that blonde haired guy that compromised his marriage alliance for her. Lucretia, “I would’ve married blah (whoever his name was), as you bid father but if I had followed my heart, I doubt I would have married either of them.”
          It doesn’t exactly hint that she’s referring to Cesare but she does indicate her heart needs mending. Sleeping with that blonde guy did not mean anything to her but with Cesare, we knew that it was different. She just didn’t completely realize it until he kissed her days before her wedding.

  20. aX says:

    There’s an important scene in 2×09 between Lucrezia and Cesare that was missed out. I do believe which it may have also helped drive him into killing his brother. Lucrezia wished it but then took her words back, “no killing then.”

    Cesare: “Hearts may be broken but not yours.”

  21. Thanks a lot for doing this! I was watching the Borgias these days and it was really good. But I couldn’t download them anywhere that has acceptable clarity… like the full episodes and the full seasons. Do you know where to download them? Because once I watched and I couldn’t stop…

    • shipcestuous says:

      Hello!

      I’m sorry, I don’t have any download links for you. I looked around a bit but couldn’t find any good ones. I like to use alluc.org, but sometimes the quality isn’t that great and it’s usually just for streaming.

      Fortunately The Borgias is one of those shows that pops up sometimes, unlike some other older ones that become impossible to find.

  22. Historygirl says:

    Thanks for this – and for the comments and discussion… I’m surprised no one has mentioned the issue of Lucrezia asking Cesare to be the one watching the consummation of her marriage to Alfonso in 3.04 – and then the scene of the consummation with Cesare watching — for me that was one of the most powerful ones. I also wanted to comment on the acting — I think the two actors have done a really good job portraying all the inner conflict and going through so many emotions barely in one scene … Really well acted, I thought
    Many thanks again!

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